Monday, 28 May 2007

12 angry men

Fellow Mordheimers, I need your opinion! (and above all this concerns Nico and Pat).

As you know, Hari has started playing amazons. What you may not know is that amazons turned out to be too powerful for regular Mordheim games, because their rules are designed for the Lustria add-on, which requires more powerful models. I had not realised that until confronted with the cruel reality of a test game with my dear cousin. Otherwise I would not have allowed that warband on my table in the first place. We had to do some serious fine-tuning to adjust them to the normal Mordheimian "difficulty" level. The result still needs some further testing and approval from you guys (I mean my players Nico and Pat).

Now Hari is considering starting another warband.
Having (it seems) a rather peculiar taste for the exotic, Hari's eyes fell upon the Beastmen Raiders, a warband that stems from another add-on called "Empire in flames". Hari asked me if I thought this warband was OK for Mordheim. Unlike Lustria, the Empire in Flames add-on does not seem to have such "tough" reputation.

But, to prevent further mishaps like the "amazon-incident", I prefer to involve a jury in the decision. That's why I need you to help me decide. Can we allow Beastmen Raiders in Mordheim?

Below are the rules for Beastmen. Please give the thing a glance and tell me what you think! (click to enlarge and/or save to desktop)
Remember: the fairness and proper balancing of our games is at stake! :)

If you allow me to add a tiny personal note: I could imagine allowing this warband. They seem more adapted to Mordheim standards than the amazons. Keep in mind that they do not have a single ranged weapon. But please give your own independent opinion! After all I'm the guy who allowed amazons... *blush*


Nicholas said...

These are some pretty fast bastards!

Okay, look what I found here:

(hope this link works!)

So the Beastmen Raiders are part of the "Official Warbands" according to Wikipedia... unlike the Amazons, *ahem ahem*...
I looked at their stats, and hell yeah they seem to be strong and tough (S=4 and T=4) and f***ing fast! but this is counterweighted by the fact that they cannot shoot. I don't know what you think, Pat, but I vote Yes.

We CAN allow Beastman Raiders in our Mordheim Campaigns.

Nicholas said...

Now to the second part of my comment... I don't really understand why this decision had to be made. Why should Hari change his Warband? I mean, okay, we already saw that the Amazons seem to be too powerful compared to official warbands. But has this been actually proven? Tom, you just fought once against these amazons and you won. This is far from convincing me that Amazons are too powerful...
You mention that you had to do some "serious fine-tuning" to adjust the level of the amazons... what did you do exactly? Did you lower their stats? And are they still too powerful after that?

Please explain to me why Hari has to change warbands!

Hari said...

Hi there Guys!

First of all, we've also read the wiki-article. But I, personally, do not trust wikipedia in all cases (it's okay for school research, but not in serious situations like mordheim!!!). Don't forget that in most cases the articles are written by fans, and not experts.

2) nothing is fixed. Beastmen are just one idea; others are Averlanders, Undead and Sisters of sigmars

3)Tom has beaten me. That's true. And I still do not have the feeling that they are really unfair. very strong (when they are more experienced), thats true.

In fact Tom claimed that not the folk/warband(normal humans)is unfair but their weapons:
There is the Claw otoO: 30gc, S+1, Parry, no armour save --> it's a sword with S+1. 20gc = S+1? is that unfair? and its RARE 12!!!

Then there is the sunstaff:
24“, 50gc, no longe-range-modifierer, no armour save,
So it is a bow with no long range-modifier 40gc = no long-range ? is that unfair ?
And it’s also RARE 12

The sun gauntlet :
12”, 40gc and no long range mod, no armour save and RARE 12
This is a better duelling pistol (+2”; no armour save instead of -2; no ”prepare shot” but also no accuracy (+1 bonus to hit); Duelling pistol costs 25 (brace 50)

In my first starting warband (when tom has beaten me); I’ve had 3 claws, 2 sunstaff and 1 gauntlet (= 230gc just for RARE-weapons  really expensive)
I’ve missed every shot! I’ve put 1 Zombie OoA and take one vampire wound  WOW!!!

Well, maybe you are wondering why i’ve not given further comments on the fact that no one of this weapons allows armour-save. The fact ist that my amazons ”ARE NOT HAVING ANY ARMOUR IN THEIR E-LIST”  every hit/shot made at my amazons has ”no armour save”, while just my amazons with these weapons (only heroines) can strike with no armour-save. if the are carrying these weapons.
I have just one possibility: amulet of the moon: 50gc RARE 12 and give the carrier a protection against missile weapons  very expensive, not affordable at the beginning and not very useful and RARE 12

So, imagine! We ’ve restricted all my RARE weapons to 1. I have 1 claw, 1 staff und 1 gauntlet in my new-calculated warband. My heroines are not allowed to have other missile weapons, henchman can have bows and slinges.
Well, you know our ”playing-rythm” RARE 20 ;-)
how often will I’ve the chance to gain one of this weapons? How often will I roll 2D6 12

greetz from Noobian-City


Hari said...

maybe you're wondering why there are little boxes in my text above. that are arrows because i've written the text in word!

Thomas said...

Ok, first of all, thanks to you all for your comments. I'm glad there is such strong feedback! I am hoping for a little discussion :)

Now, to make a few points clear:

- Hari does not have to change his warband! Here merely proposed himself to start a second one. Amazons are fine by me, hell, I even allowed them!

- The fact that I believe amazons are "too strong" is based upon 3 things: my personal Mordheim experience, the general opinion in forums accross the internet and upon what I believe to be "hard evidence". More details later.

- The so-called fine tuning is not final! It is a provisory capping of the max. number of (very) powerful artifacts Hari is allowed to carry. I want to make clear that this is very likely to change once Nico and Pat get to give their live opinion, from face to face, over the gaming board.

OK, now why are amazons too powerful for regular Mordheim games? And as a consequence, why did I rule that amazons should be deprived of those wonderful, shiny artifacts Hari loves so much?

Three reasons.

1st: Amazons are part of the Lustria expansion, along with the very famous "Dark Elves", the "Norse" and the "Lizardmen". There is a broad and general opinion in forums that Dark Elf warbands should not be allowed in regular Mordheim games, because they are too powerful. Amazons come from the that same jungle-warfare-add-on and are therefore balanced in accordance to those powerful (potential) foes, just like "Sisters of Sigmar" are balanced to stand a chance against "Possessed" for example. Amazons could be refered to as "Skaven from Lustria": no armour, normal humanoid stats, some strong artifacts and many warriors. I would like to stress "... from LUSTRIA" in that last sentence.

As a matter of fact, amazons are not allowed in official GW Mordheim tournaments.

2nd: My personal experience. Yes, it is true that I won the first game against Hari. But I insist that this is only because I am a more experienced player and he kept making mistakes (placing his warriors so that I could shoot/charge easily etc...). And he was unlucky with the dice, so he kept missing 3+ and 4+ shots.

I have played shooty factions in warhammer (Elves), warhammer 40K (Eldar) and Mordheim (Reiks). I KNOW the importance of firepower. Yet it should not be possible for a starting warband to fire 3-4 shots in a turn, at handgun range, with strengh 4, with literally no penalties whatsoever, and only needing a 3+ or 4+ (depending on the model) to hit.

I would like to ask Nico to remember our first test games, when we forgot the movement penalty for shooting with his Reiks. My (unpainted) Skaven had absolutely no chance. And he was only carrying bows.

I think good firepower is something you should get with time when you invest in it. Ex: Nico is buying new shooters when he gets money and even hired an elf to support him! Firepower should come from the QUANTITY not the QUALITY of the weapons that shoot.
That's why I equiped all my skaven with slings.

Imagine, 2-3 games from now, many of the amazons will have a BS of 4 or 5, hitting on 2+ at 24" (no range mod), with no armour save, and strenght 4. What does that mean? That means you, as the opponent, lose you hero on a the following rolls: 2+ followed by 3+.
That's it. Armor is useless, being at long range is useless, being behind cover is fairly useless...

If hari gets to fire 3-4 times per turn (he does not reload), that means at least one assured kill per turn. Hell, Nico, they can outgun your Reiks!

I am sorry, but that is plainly and simply too powerful.

Plus: Amazons are allowed bows and slings. There's no excuse.

3rd: Hard Evidence. If what I wrote above is not "hard enough", let me compare those "Sun Staff" etc artefacts to Skaven artefacts. You will see that the price/use ratio is extremely favorable to amazons (and thus grossly unfair in my humble opinion).

"Claw of the Old ones": An amazon sword (can parry) that gives +1S and ignores armor saves. For 40gc.
Means: With a newbie hero you hit a regular ennemy on, say, 3+ or 4+ and wound on 3+. Then he's dead. Bam.

Let's compare that to the skaven assassin artifacts shall we? "Weeping blades" cost 50gc. Strengh is "as user" plus they grant an automatic wound on a 6+. Which is quite useless, because a 6+ is a critical ANYWAY, so you would roll 2 wound dice ANYWAY, thus doubling your kill chances ANYWAY.

Ok, ok, let's move on. The "Sun Staff". Is a amazon ranged weapon. Costs 50gc. Range 24", no range mod, no armor save, and strength 4.

The skaven warpstone pistol costs only 35gc. But it also has only 1/3 of the sunstaff range and fires only every other turn!

The human crossbow: costs only 25gc and has (almost) the same range and the same strengh. BUT it has a "movement or fire" rule.

I don't know about you, but I am sensing a pattern...

My point is, this sunstaff has the rules of a modern assault rifle! You can move, shoot, hit, wound too easily. Ok if this is a one-of-a-kind artifact, but Hari was able to equip up to 3 models with this thing!

I realise amazons wear no armor. But be honest: are any other warbands packed with armor? My Orc Boss wears light armor, Nico's captain and Pat's Dwarf Lord. Those are warband LEADERS! The amazon leader has a +1S weapon that can give her strengh 6 after one level-up and which ignores these armors. I figure amazons just have to cope with not having armor, and buy more troops, just like skaven or orcs. It's a game style. Just like Reiks will probably favor ranged weapons and dwarfs will favor suits of shiny heavy metal armor.
I do not pity those poor "naked" amazons: if one chooses to play a string wearing warband, then one should not adopt a hack-and-slay-kick-in-the-door gamestyle. Period.

Ah yes, about that "Rare12" thing Hari brought up... It is not that uncommon to roll a 12. Especially if EVERY hero of your warband can roll 2 dice.
Let me remind you that a Gromril sword is "Rare11", costs 40gc (same price as "Claw of the old ones") and all it does is -1 to armor save.
An elven bow is also "Rare12". So that is hardly an argument.

One last thing: I want Hari to play a warband he enjoys. I want him to be able to use the models he likes. That is my top priority, because Mordheim is about fun and we all enjoy it. I am jsut concerned about the long term effets. The amazons WILL (and I know that) become too strong too quickly and easily destroy the official warbands we have built, upgraded and painted with love and time and sweat.

And Hari, isn't it more rewarding to see your warband growing stronger, slowly and step by step?

Thanks for your time, and please tell me what you all think!


nonoss said...

hum les hommes betes : les vrais

un gros defaut pas de tir de loin mais pour les avoir joué 5 en endurance pour certain assez rapidement le defaut est vite compense et par exemple le centigor auquel tu prend la competence de vitesse triplant la vitesse de charge : 24 pouces avec ses 2 attaques c est tout simplement un monstre personnellement c est mon main killer pas besoin de minautore ( qui d ailleur par rapport au rat ogre, et autres joyeuses monstruosités en grandes creatures )peut etre equipé et prends de l XP( je l ai testé avec une simple armure legere, casque, c est une machine a tuer aussi)
leur defaut devient vite une force les troupes tirant de loin font souvent tres attention a rester au plus loin de ces joyeux drilles qui chargent tous a 10 pouce mini ( fini les frondes a double tir ^^)
et au corps a corps personne ne les egalise surtout apres quelques parties si l un des protagoniste passe a 6 en endurance et arrive a avoir armure + casque ils deviennent vite lourds a tuer

Testés et approuvés meme si ils faut vraiment baisser leur carac de base

Thomas said...

Merci pour l'info Nonoss!